← Old Fashioned American Road Trips (and DragonLight)

Good Words from the Schott’s Almanac →

Out of the Closet - I Believe in Evolution

August 4th, 2008 | interviews

First, a reminder of my standard disclaimer. The views expressed here do not necessarily express the views of my employer or the publications I help edit.

But I promised this post for Mark, who left a comment addressed to me and Eric over at the Radiolab blog.

Radiolab is the best audio show I have ever heard. Ever. My wife hates audio shows, but she loves Radiolab. I’m a heel for not having made a donation to them yet. (Don’t get me wrong, I’m still highly loyal to Escape Pod and the whole Escape Artist brand.)

Don’t believe me about Radiolab? Go listen to Emergence. Or Laughter. Or Deception. After I heard the episode on Deception, I had to sit in my car in a parking garage and collect myself before I could reenter the world. The show had a profound impact on me.

Radiolab airs on National Public Radio stations, but the Podcast version of Radiolab includes extra bits, like the speech they posted last week called Tell Me a Story. In that extra, Robert Krulwich delivers a fire and brimstone commencement address at CalTech encouraging scientists to fight for their stories. For better or worse, he also uses some pretty incendiary language about Creationists.

So I couldn’t resist. I popped over to the Radiolab site and left this comment:

Inspiring speech. Interesting comments. I noted the antagonism toward creationists, too, especially since I listened to this podcast on the way home from the evangelical retreat center where I work.

But I’m no creationist. I’ve had the pleasure of interacting with folks like John Medina and Francis Collins through our retreat center. Both of them encouraged me to be much more vocal in defending science and evolution. I wouldn’t say I’m at war with creationists, but I’ve stopped sitting quietly when people assume I believe the world is 6000 years old.

I am not often out at the retreat center, so it’s a little misleading to say I “work there,” but I was trying to give a concise comment. As an editor for TheHighCalling.org and FaithInTheWorkplace.com, I defend the vision entrusted to me–without trying to insert my own opinion and philosophy.  (Though that happens from time to time because I’m only human.)

At the time I wrote the comment, I thought about linking to my interviews with John Medina and Francis Collins, but I hesitate to link to my own stuff like that.

Still, I was thinking about what John Medina told me 2 years ago:

You see, science is just one way of knowing. It is actually a fairly small sandbox. Every Christian needs to memorize Emmanuel Kant. Over 200 years ago, he said that if something is physical in nature, you may utilize the tools of this great sandbox called natural philosophy—the scientific method.

The instant something is not physical in nature, those tools collapse because you have introduced an uncontrollable variable. Not an uncontrolled variable. An uncontrollable one. That’s key.

And what Francis Collins told me last year:

One of the great tragedies of our current era is that evolution is being portrayed as a threat to God. If science is God’s gift to us, along with the intelligence to explore his world, God could hardly be threatened by what we discover. It’s all his creation. The truth is the truth, and it’s all God’s truth. I reach out as much as I can to my Christian brothers and sisters and try to make a case that this is an unnecessary battle. We can embrace evolution as God’s plan and worship him in the process, without feeling anxious or apologetic.

So here I am posting this unapologetically. If you’re a regular here, it’s probably not much of a surprise. And don’t misunderstand. I’m not picking a fight or looking to have a point by point argument over various readings of Genesis.

What I am doing is trying to find a way to talk about this issue without people yelling and calling names. And inviting Mark and Eric (the commenters from Radiolab) to talk with me here if they want to.

(Mark and Eric, we can also have a private conversation if you like. Just email me at Marcus [at symbol] HighCallingBlogs.com.)

Viewing 46 Comments

    • ^
    • v
    I'm not sure what I believe in this area... I have always wondered, though, if The Big Bang Theory in fact refers to when God created the heavens and the earth. Surely, with all the volcanos and earthquakes and meteor showers God likes a good display show. You'd think that it'd be somewhat of a "let down" to create heavens and earth without some bang and blow em up.

    But then again, I am just human, and God could be entirely different than what I imagine.
    • ^
    • v
    Gee, what have YOU been doing in the last week? Gotten kind of brave, I'd say. Bravery is good. Chivalrous even.

    So, tell us, what kind of conversation are you looking for? If you don't want to talk about Genesis and stuff like that. Just curious.
    • ^
    • v
    Arly, I agree completely that explosions are fun. That alone is a point in the big bang column for me. (I'm sort of kidding there.)

    I think you're onto something important in that last paragraph. I'm all for observing our universe and recording what we observe. I even trust that the people trained to do this are honest people. But every statement of faith should not get too far from the humility that we don't know anything for sure--whether we're making a traditionally religious statement or a scientific hypothesis that can then be tested.
    • ^
    • v
    L.L., I'm really a coward about these sorts of things most of the time. But I figure it's time to start talking reasonably--on all sides. I don't know what we'd talk about other than what we believe and why.

    And maybe think through the implications of what we believe.

    Maybe this is just a big ol' jar of meal worm salsa like I ate at the New Orleans Insectarium. Mmmmm. Meal Worm Salsa.
    • ^
    • v
    I like to tell atheists I believe in Intelligent design, and fundamentalist Christians that I believe in evolution. I don't think there's a conflict. Can you find God in "punctuated equilibrium"? I can.
    • ^
    • v
    jp, thanks for raising that issue. For folks new to that concept, I'd have to say wikipedia has a good introduction and overview of punctuated equilibrium. I have to say, I barely understand it.
    • ^
    • v
    what about humans? do you believe we evolved from apes?
    • ^
    • v
    Monica, I'd have to say that it seems plausible to me.

    Does it bother you that humans might have evolved from apes?
    • ^
    • v
    I believe in evolution, as a belief, not as a religion. That is where I get worn down with evolutionists.

    Separate the worldview of we are going to kill God and crush the Christians and puruse fully objective science in the whole thing and I have no problem. Same goes for Christians who say they will crush the evolutionists with the weight of the bible.

    In the words of John Lennon "...cant we all just get along?" there are enough hills for Christians to charge and fight, this is not one of them.
    • ^
    • v
    no.

    I do feel sad (and a bit shocked) that you think it's possible. But it's not a deal breaker for me - I'll still associate with you. When you meet the Lord, he'll set you straight. ha ha
    • ^
    • v
    Carl, your comment reminds me of another reason to talk about this. Some of my best friends are atheists. They live in communities of atheism almost--and their picture of the evangelical world is skewed by the media. It makes me sad.

    Monica, I'm sorry you're sad too! I guess it is just a sad issue. Why is that? At any rate, I'm sure the Lord will set me straight on a lot of points! And I look forward to it.
    • ^
    • v
    Hmm... of course, I've been thinking about this a lot because I've been putting together a science curriculum for my daughter next year. So it seems as though this one I'll respond to.

    I almost believed in evolution once, then I decided I didn't really care HOW God made the earth and that I'd leave the question unanswered for now.

    And, yet, it seems to me that both sides say they have "real" science completely on their side. (Reading books on the subject is fascinating, no matter who is talking.) To which I say... "Hmm... I think I'm going to go out and dig up fossils and find out what THEY say!" *sigh* If only we could all just find out for ourselves,... but most of us are left trusting people who may be carried away with their own ideas. And so... I lean toward six day creation because I know God CAN, and it seems more powerful to me that He could do it that way.

    Agreeing with Monica's last sentence, I'm sure He'll set us ALL straight when we see Him face to face. It's pretty clear that how He made the world will be the least of our concerns, actually.
    • ^
    • v
    Karen, thanks for weighing in. There's no doubt in my mind that God could have created the world in six days if he'd wanted to.

    And I think it's great that you're reading what folks say about it all! Be sure to read Francis Collins' book The Language of God if you haven't already.

    I also agree that how God made the world shouldn't be a concern. So why was I so scared to post this?
    • ^
    • v
    I don't know if the world was created in 6 days or not. I don't know if it was created aged or new. I don't know how old the earth is.
    That's not the point of the creation story. The creation story emphasizes, over against other Ugaritic myths, that God is sovereign and that man, rather than being some accident, is pre-eminent in creation.
    That being said, I don't believe in evolution, not because of my oh-so-knowledgeable scientific expertise, but because evolution means that death came before the fall, and I don't believe death to be natural. It's unnatural. It's part of the fall, and I believe Christ's victory in his resurrection (and our hope of our future resurrection) defeats the fall and death.
    Now that being said, I do believe that creationists and evolutionists alike have a hard time being unbiased about the whole thing--and should we? Aren't we by nature biased toward something or other? Isn't it impossible to be purely objective about anything? Don't we come to everything with the presuppositions of our worldviews? As C.S. Lewis said, there's enough science in the world to prove anything (in The Discarded Image). I have many friends who are both, and I imagine it will always be that way until the day that it no longer matters.
    So that's my two cents. I hope I didn't get too "Genesis-y" on you! ;) Will you still be my friend?
    • ^
    • v
    Marcus, I love the questions you are asking. Like why it bothers us about the apes. Or why this is such a sad issue.

    I think it's hard to consider having come down from such unattractive creatures. : ) Also, it does raise that whole sticky question about what was meant by Adam and Eve being personally created by God. (Sorry, I think you didn't particularly want to talk about Genesis. But that's where the story is. : )
    • ^
    • v
    Well, being a middle born, I don't like conflict. When we don't all agree, and it's controversial, I get a little nervous. I like The Family to be in harmony.

    And you were scared because you know there are Christians out there who would call you crazy for even suggesting evolution is truth. They might even say you weren't a Christian.
    • ^
    • v
    Welcome back, Marcus. And way to re-enter the blog world. :)

    I think I've been riding the fence on this one for a while now. A few members of my family loved the Creation Museum and the movie, Expelled, but I feel so ignorant about any position that I hesitate to even ask what they liked about these.

    I am, however, quite comfortable accepting whatever God did (unless I came from custard, which makes me gag). Six or six million, or maybe even something so radical that Moses couldn't bear to repeat, I trust that God could do it, and I'll revere Him all the same.
    • ^
    • v
    I'm probably going to win the wingnut of the century award with these comments, but since Marcus was so brave, I'll take the bait.

    Perhaps it's deciding not to decide, but I like the idea of God as the Big Bang. Like The Big Bopper of Evolution. Really, though, wouldn't "someone/thing" have to set up the bang to begin with?

    I'm always amused by the evolving from apes (there are days, especially after reading the news, if I don't wonder if it's the reverse). Nothing to do with its truth. I just wonder why there are still apes.
    • ^
    • v
    Wow, Marcus, you know how to make an entrance!

    What I find most confusing is that when people refer to "evolution" theory and "creation" theory and whether they believe in it or not, I find that they are using the same words to talk about very different concepts, and usually it seems they are only referring to part of the overall concept. What would be most beneficial to me in these types of conversations is for people to explain what they really mean rather than just using the general terms that carry so much meaning and controversy inherently in themselves now.

    Have you ever seen Rob Bell's Everything is Spiritual video? In it he talks about 2-Dimensional world (which he called Flatland) and how the people who live in 2-Dimensional world can only see things in 2 dimensions, and so their entire world view - even vocabulary - is set within the context of the limit of their universe - two dimensions. He held up a marker and said if I show someone in Flatland the marker this way (showing the marker to the audience from the side), what would they see? A rectangle. If I showed it to them this way (showing the marker from the end) what do they see? A circle. And to the people in Flatland, they cannot describe it otherwise and they cannot see it otherwise. But in reality, the marker is both . . . even more. So if we live in our world (how many dimensions have we discovered now?) and God lives outside our world in a place with dimensions we don't even understand, can't we then assume that some things are beyond the limit of our language, our understanding?

    I sort of feel that way about the way science and religion like to explain the way the world began and how it works.
    • ^
    • v
    Oh, man! Sorry. That ended up being a longer comment than I expected. :)
    • ^
    • v
    I just know I'm about to get into a multi-paragraph fugue about this, but here goes nothing.

    I think it's troublesome that so many people of faith find it difficult, if not impossible to reconcile the observable universe with scripture. As one of little faith myself, I guess I don't really identify with the mindset that opts to ignore evidence that runs counter to orthodoxy. I understand the impulse if one ascribes to a particularly stark fundamentalist interpretation of scripture, but despite being one of little faith, it has major flaws in my eyes.

    It takes away the power of the myth of the creation story. The story of the Garden of Eden, Adam, Eve, temptation, etc are all more powerful to me as metaphor describing the limits of humanity, that what separates us from god is wanting. Holding firm to the belief that it is a journalistic, observed account of the beginning of life is at once juvenile and simplistic as it is debasing, and robs a potentially profound story of its message.

    In a way, creationism pigeonholes god into something that it's not, which is limited -- to a tidy, easy-to-digest temporal narrative in which the world is created in a single week. Nothing about life, god, or humanity is illuminated in this story. All it says is "God is magic!" which, you know, is just so damn spiritually unfulfilling and a large part of the reason why I left the church and joined those crazy Unitarians.