A discussion started on my Comments on God’s Blog post today. I haven’t commented there yet because I’m not sure what to say. I’m a little out of my league to be honest.
If you don’t want to read a tangent, then don’tÂ
Well, ok then. You’re still here. This is a long post, so I highlighted the key points to help you skim.
First, I want to reassure people (especially Craver) that I would never dream of censoring a comment here—unless it was pornographic or spamographic. The jury is out on which of those are worse. (OK, ok. Porn is worse. But I really really hate spam.) I might turn off the comments if things got mean. And I would of course give myself the last word because I’m egotistical that way.
Whew. After breaking the tension with some comic relief…Â
For those of you who are not Christian, I am honored that you thought enough of my post and this community to share your faith here.
I am a Christian. I try not to whack people on the head with a Bible because that would hurt. Also, it’s mean. I do believe the Bible to be the inspired Word of God—although I qualify that somewhat to separate myself from folks who seem to read it as a book of answers.
The Bible has one answer: Itself. In the beginning was the Word. Jesus became the physical manifestation of the Word. But the community of his believers and followers are now his body. They have become the body of his Word. The Word is not the book alone, but the book is the clearest and most reliable manifestation of the Word that we still have.
That is why the Christian who comments on God’s Blog is begging for a new Word. That person is just an approximation of me, but that desire to know God intimately is very real. My doubt and cynicism and skepticism demand to hear confirmation from God. But God is supernatural. I am only natural. I do not hear direct confirmation from God.
Karin and Liz and Shep and Eve and Craver and Chesnut and L.L. and Lisa and the other folks who pop in here from time to time—I know all of you share the same desire to know God intimately. We want God to speak to us.
And God does. God does speak to me, but he does so in ways that require faith.
Let’s pretend I’m on NPR. This I believe: There is truth in every honest attempt to seek God. Because humanity itself—when we honor God in our actions—has been given the grace to reveal God to ourselves and the world. Christian theologians call that general grace. All goodness comes from God. Therefore all truth and all beauty necessarily point back toward God.
That is why I love Keats:
‘Beauty is truth, truth beauty,—that is all
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.’Â
It is why I love Hopkins:
Each mortal thing does one thing and the same:
…myself it speaks and spells,
Crying Whát I do is me: for that I came.
Christian theologians take the concept of grace a step further. General grace guides everyone toward God, then the particular grace of the Bible and the incarnation of Jesus clarifies God in a much more specific way. These ideas are explained much better by N. T. Wright in The Challenge of Jesus.
Keats understood general grace, but Hopkins explains particular grace as part of the turn in his sonnet:
à say móre: the just man justices;
Kéeps gráce: thát keeps all his goings graces;
Acts in God’s eye what in God’s eye he is—
ChrÃst.
This is hard stuff to read, I know. Poetry is dense. It’s truths are playful and mystical—like real truth. But here’s what I think Hopkins is saying. General grace, general revelation is good. We find purpose in being ourselves. Self-reliance! Independence! Freedom! These are godly values. But “à say móre.” I am my truest self when I recognize who I am in God’s sight. God has perfect vision. 20/20. And when he looks at me, he sees Christ. According to Hopkins, my truest self is not Jesus, but Christ. Jesus is the particular revelation to which I conform myself.
And I still don’t know what that means exactly. Ain’t it great?
The premise of the original post was doubt. How much can I doubt? How far can I allow myself to doubt? My dad wondered if the post was blasphemy. Others have wondered if some of the comments were blasphemy.
I don’t know. My intentions are certainly not blasphemous. And I don’t think your intentions were either. My intentions were to express why I struggle to pray. I need someone to talk back. And God speaking in the gentle breeze doesn’t hack it for me! I want to hear thunder. I want a divine reprimand like Job gets. I want to fall on my face like Isaiah and say, “I am ruined.”
Here’s my question: I asked for a response from God. Did I get one? How do I know which one it was—except by faith? And how do people decide where to place their faith?
(We’ll get back to grammar and publishing soon… after these messages.)
{ 15 comments }
How about God in the pine needles? That’s where He’s speaking on my blog today. Honestly, I think the breeze and the pine needles are just a front… they might arrest our senses, catch us off guard, open us up to hear His voice speaking directly to our hearts.
And, yes, I’ve surely doubted the reality of that Voice at times. But, I think it’s impossible not to doubt that which is invisible from time to time. Heck, I often doubt things that are even visible to me!
I haven’t read the comments that sparked this response yet (I’ll go there now), but I think God wants to hear everything from us… doubts, angers, selfish wants, whatever. He left the whole book of Psalms in the bible after all, now didn’t He…
I’m just glad you’re an honest soul, telling Him and us what you think.
Mark,
I am speechless.
You’re brilliant.
“God has perfect vision. 20/20. And when he looks at me, he sees Christ.â€
What an awe-inspiring thought! I am familiar with my many failings. But God has chosen to cover the ones he has called with the righteousness of His own Son. Isn’t that absolutely amazing? This weekend, many will give special attention to Christ’s death and resurrection. Our sin was laid on Jesus, and His righteousness legally imputed onto the ones who belong to Him.
Christians have different ideas concerning how God speaks to us. I don’t plan to get into the theology of the “still, small voice.†(Not just yet, anyway.) Non-Christians have even more different ideas about how God speaks to us. I love it that we can come here and be open about these things, without the fear of being honest with each other.
Some thoughts:
“There is truth in every honest attempt to seek God.”
Truth is absolute, not relative. all truth leads us back to the originator of the truth-God.
Romans 3:10-12, ” As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.”
Only God can give us the desire to seek after Him. (Dead people can’t desire-spiritually dead that is.)
“I do not hear direct confirmation from God.”
Actually, we do, just not an audible voice.
I remember once, when time$ were tough, praying for the means to make cookies for Christmas that year. That very week, someone left a box on our doorstep with one of everything off the baking aisle.
This doesn’t happen just once, but every week (no, not the baking-the direct leading and answered prayer).
“I want to hear thunder. I want a divine reprimand like Job gets. I want to fall on my face like Isaiah and say, “I am ruined.â€
I hear ya, Mark. I want that and yet I’m terrified to actually get it. The Bible often talks about the fear of seeing God because they would die-but what a way to go!!
First a personal story, then the explanation:
My brother had a blood disease at a very young age. It required him to have to have painful bone marrow tests. He had three, and that was enough. He asked God to please not allow him to have anymore.
I came home from school one day, and he was crying. He found out that he had to have another test. Later, my mom heard him in the shower. He was crying and he was mad. He finally started talking to God, telling him how mad he was, how he had trusted Him, but He didn’t hear him. You know what? After that shower, my brother had a peace about his test.
All of that to say: God knows we’re mad. God knows we doubt. He knows we seek, we’re indifferent, we’re sad, happy…. He knows. He just wants us to acknowledge it ourselves, and then He can work with us. It’s one of the biggest lessons we learned through my brother’s illness.
So were you blasphemous? I don’t believe so. I think you were honest.
Hi Mark and all others.
Not that I’m struggling with this, on the contrary, it made me quiet again and kind of peaceful as if I’m ‘on to something’.
It is a large post Mark, so allow me to quote several sentences before commenting on them (I will loose track of my on thoughts otherwise):
“although I qualify that somewhat to separate myself from folks who seem to read it as a book of answers…The Bible has one answer: Itself. In the beginning was the Word.”
I’m am with you here: the words in The Bible are not all the answers, the answers to our doubting questions (on life, on God, on the world) are in us – as in how we read those words and ‘translate’ them for ourselves.
“I know all of you share the same desire to know God intimately. We want God to speak to us.
And God does. God does speak to me, but he does so in ways that require faith.”
My ’struggle’ is with this part, struggle as in: is that what I really desire?
Part of me says yes, part of me says: no, I want to understand myself and my fellow human beings intimately. (And then I think: that’s the same principle, so I understand where Lisa’s thoughts and words in the first post came from).
Which brings me to your last question Mark: did you get an answer?
I think you did, several in fact. Confirmation that you’re not alone in doubting, confirmation that you received them by faith (your faith, my faith in humanity).
Hope this makes sense, have to think/ponder on this a while longer, and perhaps always will (which on its own is good)
Mark
Fascinating post and responses. The one thing I’ll add is that the Bible is sufficient. It is sufficient for all the most important answers we need for life. I’ve gone through some really difficult life situations, and at times, the written words of the Bible were the only comfort sufficient for my situations.
Even though I might like to think otherwise at times, I’m certain that I don’t have the answers inside of me.
The eternal God created mankind, intending for us to live with him, walking in joyful dependence upon him. Our sin against each other (Re: wars, murder, racism, etc…) is just a symptom of our rebellion against God.
That’s why Jesus came – to reconcile to God a new people who are reconciled to this incomparable, eternal, loving God. That’s why for all Bible Christians, there are few days more glorious than Easter.
Sorry, I just realize my last paragraph was a little messed up… that’s why we need editors.
Here’s what occurred to me reading this post today: doubt is what happens when the God of our hopes and imaginings comes up against the God of the Bible, that is the True God.
He won’t fit neatly into any category. He’s good and all-powerful, yet evil still exists. He desires our best, yet allows tragedy in our lives. The seeming contradictions are hard to resolve, so we begin to conclude that God is not who He says. Or is He?
Sometimes when we doubt it’s because our faith is about to grow. We need to wrestle with previous assumptions and discard those of our own making.
I’m still thinking about all this. I think I’ll say more on my own blog today. Seems to fit.
Thanks for all the comments here. I hope you’ll understand if I don’t respond to you individually on this one.
That doesn’t mean I am not touched by all of your words.
I’m unplugging for the rest of Easter weekend. My daughter just gave me a kiss as I typed that. Hmmm. Maybe it’s a hint?
Happy Easter everyone. Don’t forget to worship.
Happy Easter my friend
I’m late to this conversation, as usual. I won’t try to add anything . . . I know you’ve all moved on. Just want to say “bravo,” that this conversation happened. I hope to be part of some future conversations.
To answer your final question, I would say, “how is that working for you?” Those of us who go to church and have good teaching from transparent pastors/clergy are mindful that a trusting faith does not mean an easy road, BUT…
If you have that faith your difficult road will be more bearable. For those who have not made a decision or who say that there (as gamers would say) is “no end-game,” I pose this thought: “would you rather have insurance and have it fail or not have insurance and find out in the end that you needed it?”
Responses come in many varieties, but usually in confirmation of choices and devotion. I have yet to physically hear the voice of God or know anyone of sound mind who has.
I’m with you on this, Jesse. There’s a lot I could say, but maybe we’ll save it for Chicago.
The bit about transparency really hits home. I might talk about vulnerability, rather than transparency. But it’s a very similar concept.
I need other people to see that I don’t have it all together. Far far far from it.
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